Shitcanning the media narrative on Ukraine w/ Olesya Orlenko – Ep 154

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Don: This is Fortress On A Hill, with Henri, Kaygan, Jo

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vonni, Shiloh, and Monisha

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Jovanni: Welcome everyone to Fortress On A Hill, a podcast about US foreign

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policy, anti imperialism, skepticism, and the American way of war..

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I'm Jovanni.

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Thank you for being with us today.

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Most Americans will remember the war happening in Eastern Europe starting

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on February 24, 2022, when Russian President Vladimir Putin announced

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the special military operations and the intervention in Ukraine.

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Back then, there was an uproar in Western society and Western

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media went into hysteria.

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Huge condemnations from NATO countries and their close allies.

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It was described as a grievance of crimes, the worst.

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This was naked Russian aggression not seen in Europe since the Second World War.

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Forgetting that, two decades earlier, Nader set the former Yugoslavia on fire,

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causing the dismemberment of the country, and that they themselves have been waging

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war and bombing multiple Muslim majority countries for the last two decades.

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There was a new Hitler in Europe, and his name was Vladimir

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Putin, was the Western outcry.

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All of a sudden, everything in Russia, everything Russian

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was cancelled in the West.

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Russophobia was at its highest.

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Now, if you remember the war starting two years ago, that's because the U.

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S.

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and Western media, let's call it the NATO media, has been sure to keep you

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thinking this war started two years ago out of a vacuum with no context.

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The way the media constructed the narrative is that Ukraine was minding its

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own business and peace when Putin all of a sudden decided to invade just for funsies.

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Most Americans would be unaware.

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The Kiev had already been at war for the last nine years against its Russian

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speaking population in the eastern region called the Donbass and against other

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Ukro Russian inhabitants in the area.

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The catalyst for this war was the CIA NATO 2014 engineered coup in Kiev

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which used the Euromaidan protests as a cover to facilitate the seizure of

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power by ultra right wing and neo Nazi elements and militias such as the Right

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Sector and other bandit right factions.

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Here to tell us more, I'm honored to introduce our guest.

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All the way from Moscow is Olesya Orlenko.

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Olesya is a Russian historian, researcher, and reporter.

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She studied at the Institute of Russian and Archive in Russia,

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History Archive Russia, and at the National Charter School in France.

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Her interest includes World War II, Nazi genocide and extermination

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policy, history of the far right movement, and theories in France.

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Since 2014, Melissa has been closely following events in the Donbass

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province and has traveled to the war zone several times to gather facts

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of crimes committed by the Ukrainian army against the inhabitants of

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the UNESCO and Lugansk regions.

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She became a journalist in 2016 and has been reporting on such facts since.

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Olesya is an author, documentarian, and founder of the Russian

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Society of Friends of L'Humanité, a French left wing newspaper.

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Welcome to the show, Olesya.

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Olesya Orlenko: Hello, thank you.

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Thank you for inviting me.

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Jovanni: Olesya please tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from,

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and what brought you to your interests.

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Olesya Orlenko: Firstly, as you, as you have already mentioned, I was

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working as historian and, I think I'm telling this story all the time

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when I'm speaking about the Donbas.

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The events that happen now, for me, they are directly related with my interest

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and my occupation as a historian.

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I was working in different historical research projects, and one of them, which

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was very interesting, lasted many years.

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I was collecting the memories.

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I was recording the eyewitnesses of Nazi genocide, uh, in, uh, Soviet Russia,

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Soviet Belorussia, Soviet Latvia, people who are still living there.

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Uh, it was, uh, the special, uh, area of Nazi extermination policy where,

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uh, many villages were entirely destroyed and the population, killed

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or, sent to the concentration camps.

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And as it was, uh, twenty nine, twenty ten, twenty eleven, two thousand nine,

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two thousand ten, two thousand eleven years, so it was Long time ago, we

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could still find, uh, those who were children at the time, of World War ii.

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People who, uh, had 10 years, nine years, um, at this time.

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And, uh, we made, uh, quite interesting work with a lot of recordings.

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Many, uh.

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Thousands of, uh, interviews, of course, I wasn't alone.

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I was with my colleagues and, uh, uh, we're, uh, spending all summer

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actually in, in those area, uh, by traveling village to village.

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So very interesting work, very rich and, uh, very important, I think.

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When in 2014, uh, all this, those, those Maidan story and,

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uh, the war in Donbass began?

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I recognized when I was following the news and when I was speaking with the

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people who lives there, people I know who lives in Donetsk, what they were

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talking, how they were describing what happens, I really recognized, I've

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had a really deja vu, uh, feeling.

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Uh, I heard this before from different persons and about different time.

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But for me, it was so obviously that history repeating.

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And I started to do the same thing that I done some years ago.

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Uh, I started to Record the information about what happens.

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So, making a list of facts.

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And me and some colleagues of mine, uh, we start, we started doing this work.

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Well, it was like, just for ourselves, it wasn't the institution or something.

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So, we just made, started to make this, and then we We created the Facebook

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page, but of course it's not an official organization, just a Facebook page for

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fix and to make reposts of some news.

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It will disappear.

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They're passing away, they're passing away all the time.

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Actually, in 2014, we were hoping that it'll stop that, we haven't had

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an idea that it will last for years, all this war and this confrontation.

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We decided to proceed with our, with our work.

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We started to find other people who could help us.

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We started to find other people in Donetsk.

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As I told you, I, uh, I've been in Donetsk in Soviet time as a child.

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And I know people there, from there.

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I know people who are the age of my parents, and, they

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had their children as well.

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Some of them evacuated just at the beginning of the war

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because it was very violent.

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But some of them stayed there, so I could really, uh, get the

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information directly from the place.

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Uh, and as everything evaluated in the bad sense of this word, I'm still

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there, I'm still doing this kind of job, I'm still doing this kind of work,

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but of course we now have our team.

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Because since 2014 some of my colleagues went away because it's

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quite a pacifical occupation.

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And actually these, those events bring me to the journalism.

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Because I, I wanted to find the journalists from the, uh, other countries

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who share my views, my opinions.

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And I found them, actually.

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Uh, 2014, uh, 16, I found them.

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And I was optimist at the time.

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I was optimist.

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I thought that, uh, really sort of mobilization.

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Uh, I mean, social, uh, activist mobilization would really, uh, contribute

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to change, uh, things to better.

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But, unfortunately, it wasn't and now, after the beginning of special

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operation, I'm going myself to, to the place and even, even, uh, the special

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operation, I, I spent, I, I was in Donetsk when special operation began.

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I was with the French journalist there.

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Of course, I didn't know that, uh, everything, uh, going to happen,

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but, uh, I've seen how it was.

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I came there in Donetsk to follow the mobilization because if you remember

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in the beginning of February, there was a big mobilization and at the same

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evacuation of civilians, because, all this tension in the border on the front line.

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It was violated, the front line and the agreement of stop fire.

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I don't know how to say it, but it was violated many times.

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So, uh, I think it was in the air that, uh, something will, will happen.

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And because of that the ceasefire.

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Uh, and it was violated, and it was in the air that something happened.

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But of course we didn't expect to be at the middle of all those events.

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Uh, and since then I came, uh, several times.

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Uh, in Donetsk, but, uh, what I insist in my work is, uh,

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always to record the civilians.

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I'm not covering the, um, war, uh, events and I'm not covering the military issues.

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Uh, what I'm doing is I'm always coming to people, uh, who are always

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victims, actually all the time and from both sides, victims are civilians.

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And I'm talking with them, uh, and that's what I'm doing.

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I'm standing always at the same position as I was in 2014.

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So, in, from, from this point of view My views didn't change, so I'm always

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thinking what I thought 10 years and it's horrible, really sounds horrible.

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And that's what I continue to do, even when everything will stop,

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because in this, because the crimes against civilians, it's always.

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Very vulnerable topic, uh, and one of the most important for society,

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all the time, no matter how much time passed from the events.

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And the proof is that even now, the, uh, uh, the events of Second World War,

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uh, are still harmful for some people.

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For historical memory, for social memory, and, uh, you can say the same

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thing from no matter which country.

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Jovanni: So you said you chronicle and the, um, what the civilians,

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uh, has been, uh, uh, experiencing.

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And, uh, you write about that and you, uh, discuss and you talked about the

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civilians and you, um, got there in 2014.

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Uh, and you've been to Dunes and Luhan area since the, uh, specialty operation.

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Can you, can you describe what the civilians were telling you back then

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and what they're telling you now?

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If anything has changed, if it's the same, if it's gotten better?

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Olesya Orlenko: Well, uh, it's, it's actually, yes, uh, they, they have changed

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their views, of course, but I mean, uh, I'll explain to you why I'm saying this.

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Um.

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Uh, I think that everybody now, uh, in media and it's very present is this,

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uh, uh, this, uh, uh, rhetoric that, uh, East Ukraine, Eastern Ukraine is

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pro Russian, it's more, uh, uh, Russian speakers and, uh, uh, the, the area

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with, uh, with a special, uh, history connected very much with, uh, Russia

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since, uh, Uh, centuries and the, uh, uh, Western Ukrainian and contrary,

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it's like, you know, uh, uh, more, the language is, uh, more similar with

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Polish language and, uh, the territory were, in Poland during many years.

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I can tell you that Donetsk, well, in my, uh, opinion, as I remember this

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in Soviet time, and as I know it now, perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm telling

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you my, uh, view of this region.

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It's absolutely a double speaking region.

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Even between my friends.

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I, I can tell you that even they speak if they speak Russian in bilingual.

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Yeah, they are bilingual.

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Uh, and if they speak Russian, uh, uh, in their family, they are absolutely.

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capable to speak Ukrainian.

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Uh, I can tell you more.

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I can tell you that, uh, some of my friends and my comrades, uh, uh,

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who came in Donetsk or in region, uh, in the families came there,

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living there since 19th century.

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They were, uh, Learning at Ukrainian schools, but they speak perfectly

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Russian without any accent, you know, so a lot, a lot of people

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there, uh, are, uh, bilingual.

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And, uh, I'm not saying of course, it's even in the cities and, and I, I'm not

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saying, I'm not saying in villages because if you come in village, of course you

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will see, you will hear all this mix of Russian, Ukrainian, uh, and very, very

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different, uh, languages and uh hmm.

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Uh, special vocabulary, which you cannot find anywhere else.

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So it's very, very interesting from this point of view, from a sociological

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and ethnological point of view.

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But This confrontation.

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So I cannot say tell you that in two, 2014, and people, I'm, and I'm asking

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them why they, for example, were in anti Maidan, uh, in 2014 in esque, uh,

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they won't tell you that we are not want, we don't want to be in Ukraine,

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or we don't want to speak Ukrainian.

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No.

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They are speaking Ukrainian.

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The problem is the, the, uh, the issue is always, uh, political choice, as

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people understand, because, you know, the political choice is when you say

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this, you should understand that the politician who will sign the agreements

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or, who will talk with the, uh, leaders of other country and the The person who

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lives in Donetsk going to work at the, uh, I don't know, at the factory or,

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no matter, or who lives in a village.

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They have the different understanding of this political choice.

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How it was explained to these people because, that's always

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the matter of the state.

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To keep the country together, you really need to make all citizens to understand

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that they are citizens of this country.

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And I think that 2014 is a big failure of the Ukrainian state.

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I mean, this failure didn't occur in 2014 because it's the consequence

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of the previous evolution.

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In 2014, it was the sign that the Ukrainian state made a big mistake

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before, and it's not capable to keep the country together.

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If you hear what people were saying in 2014, the problem is not

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what they were thinking about the Kiev war, about the government.

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But when people saw that there is an army People from Donetsk or, I don't

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know, in Slavyansk, for example, that people from Slavyansk, when they saw

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that the army, the citizens of the same country, they speak in the same

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language, uh, when they come to shoot them, when the first blood started

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to appear and the civil war started.

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Was operated in Kyiv.

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' cause Kyiv made a choice to keep the country together.

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The government made the choice to start the Civil War.

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So this choice, made a really split between.

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Between Ukraine and people from Donbas and, Logan areas, territories, uh, they,

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they, they started the split, started there from there, from the Civil War.

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And 2014 I really heard, voices.

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That we need to stop it, we need to stop fire, we need

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really to find another solution.

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In 2022, when I came there, the discourse has absolutely changed.

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In this case, the discourse of people, when you go to the magazine,

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to the street and they stop people.

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When I talked to them, they, they are saying that I don't want to be

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And Many friends of mine say that Ukraine killed Ukrainian in me, so I

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don't want, I cannot be in this state, so their political choice, uh, were

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determined by the policy of Kiev.

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That's what they say, that's why, that's why when it was the

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referendum, our colleagues followed really very much this referendum.

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I think this referendum Uh, about the self determination and about to enter

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in Russian, uh, in Russia, to enter in Russia in September, uh, of 2022.

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I think it was really fair, it maybe it sounds for those who listen to

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us, uh, unacceptable, but it's really fair because I Met all the time.

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I haven't ever met in, in, in my displacement in, in Luhansk

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I haven't ever met, someone who can say that, no, I don't agree.

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I don't want to be in Russia.

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So all of them were dreaming about Russia because they had their reasons.

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People was thinking that it'll resolve.

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The problem and they, uh, help them, uh, in their situation.

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They were during eight years in a very, in, in a humanitarian catastrophic,

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and of course, only, solution they seen, the russian choice.

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So.

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I think that instead of resolving the problem, the Ukrainian government

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choice to make, things worse.

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And, as well the big failure of the Ukraine.

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Many people I know in 2014 15, uh, they were trying to

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leave the, area of combatants.

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And they, uh, they, they wanted to evacuate it somewhere.

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And, uh, many of them choose Ukraine.

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They moved to Ukraine, I mean to the central or east Ukraine to

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avoid the danger and they came back because they were accepted.

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Where with the, the, they, they didn't fail themselves as in their country.

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They felt better In Crimea or, or in Rosol, uh, region or in Russia?

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Many of them left the central and eastern Ukraine and moved back, in the East.

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, of course they are they are people who, uh, evacuated and who made

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the choice to stay in Ukraine.

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I keep in contact with some of them.

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And I'm keeping in contact with my Ukrainian friends and,

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comrades who are still in Ukraine.

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But their situation is , very complicated.

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Some of them, uh, stayed in Ukraine because they couldn't leave.

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Now they are hiding from the mobilization.

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Anyway, the situation, is very hard, as they describe it.

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And some of my friends are now in Ukrainians, Ukrainian prisons,

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and with some of them we really I can hardly communicate because

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two years now, they are in prison.

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Jovanni: So know that, um, in 2014, after the coup, um, the, the The anti

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Russian sentiments, right, really intensified in Western Ukraine.

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Um, you started seeing, um, attacks against the Russian identity in Ukraine.

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You started seeing, people, politicians, political parties being, um, cancelled

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or prohibited because they were thought to be too close to Russia.

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Uh, the Russian Orthodox Church was shut down.

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, there were ban on books on Russian language.

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You saw trade unionists in Odessa, for example, they barricaded

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themselves in their office building and a mob, an anti Russian mob,

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pretty much, um, set the building on fire and killing all 80 of them.

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Um, Crimea rapidly conducted a referendum with the majority voting to

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secede from Ukraine and join Russia.

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Russia conceded and annexed the peninsula.

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The people of Donbass did the same.

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However, Russia did not annex them.

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What do you think, what do you think that, uh, that happened?

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Olesya Orlenko: Those anti-Russian anti-Russian anti-Russian, uh,

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sentiments in, uh, Western Ukraine.

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You know, I faced them, uh, even, uh, when I was a child.

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It's not something that appeared 10 years ago.

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Uh, I, uh, was born in, uh, 1981 and my family, uh, was half Ukrainian.

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And you can see my name and my, uh, family name are Ukrainians and my grandfather.

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Uh, was from, uh, the Western Ukraine and, uh, so I can tell you that,

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uh, he was born in Poland because it was at the moment when he was

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born it was, uh, Polish territory.

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And I can tell you that in this part of my family, the nationalism was very strong.

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And in Soviet time, especially in Moscow, you know, and he was military, and it

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wasn't exposed too much, you know, it wasn't the topic of family conversation.

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But I really, I do remember, uh, the anti Semitic nationalist, speech phrases I

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didn't make any attention to this, but I remember that it was really the reason,

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um, the reason of the confrontation with my mother and father sometimes.

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Um, although they were, uh, uh, young as well.

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What I'm saying the, people like the, the extremists, the nationalists, the

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radicals, they are existing in, uh, all country and, uh, uh, all the time.

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How influenced they become in the country.

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So it's like criminals, they can say that in a way.

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Everywhere where there is a human society, there are deviations and there will be

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criminals or, I don't know, fake people.

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But if you, the question is if you allow them to make decisions, if you

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allow them to influence the others.

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Uh, I'm not thinking that West Ukraine is completely anti Russian, they are only a

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racist who lives there and now it's not.

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Uh, I was in Lviv, I was, uh, in Western Ukraine and I've seen.

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Of course, I've seen both.

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I've seen, uh, the, really, the racist, but at the same time, I've seen very

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intelligent, smart people, uh, and I don't know how they're living now, because,

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uh, they are afraid to contact someone, uh, in Russia, it was, uh, Since the

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beginning of the, of the war, uh, since, uh, 2014, they stopped contact with me.

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The problem is the minority of this radical minority.

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They are now access there to education, they can influence the society, they

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have all freedom to express their ideas,

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the opportunities to express the opposite opinion are very, very, very wide.

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It's not natural conflict, there were a lot of possibility, opportunities to

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avoid this conflict, to resolve it then.

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And even when the special operation began, there was still time, while we

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could, I mean, people from the society.

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The international community could really introduce an influence to stop

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the violence, but we are observing, I'm observing since 2014, even earlier,

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but let's take 2014, when I'm The one opportunity after another is lost

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when one red line crossed, another one extended and then crossed again.

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So now I can, now the reality, I remember that two years ago, I was

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reading the articles and the political say, it was saying from France, from

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US, from, was saying that no, this is a red line, uh, we couldn't cross it.

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But now, look, two years, have passed and we've seen that all red lines, of

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two years ago, now they are passed away.

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What else?

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What we're doing?

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What we're doing again?

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So, is there any real red line which we cannot cross?

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If we're talking about Crimea, it was very, uh, interesting particular region,

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but it was very from strategical point of view, very, very important for Russia.

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I think that this conflict, uh, when I'm talking about the Ukraine, but of

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course, Uh, the, the relations in the post Soviet space, depended as well from

00:26:32
Russia and for Russia it is important.

00:26:35
The failure as well since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

00:26:40
One failure for after another for, for Russia.

00:26:43
Everything started from the war.

00:26:46
It's just, uh, if you see Sochi, uh, and it was, it's just,

00:26:50
uh, very, very new to Sochi.

00:26:51
You, you, you take two hours maximum for to go there, uh, by train.

00:26:56
Uh, and I, I, I visited, uh, Apia as a journalist as well.

00:27:01
Uh, I've seen.

00:27:03
It's really a disaster.

00:27:04
It's a disaster.

00:27:05
It's an absolutely abandoned, very, very rich region.

00:27:11
But I've seen those, the entire city, the ghost city, you know, the entire city.

00:27:20
You could see the buildings.

00:27:22
You can also see the traces of the war who ended.

00:27:26
30 years ago, you still can see the, uh, the traces of fires,

00:27:32
of destroyed buildings, and the city, the whole city is abandoned.

00:27:38
It's, uh, hallucinating, it's amazing, I mean, in a bad sense of this word.

00:27:43
Uh, even there, about, I've seen that about 9 or 10 persons still

00:27:50
live there, of course, the old ones.

00:27:53
I really, uh Of course it, uh, it wasn't the first war, but I mean,

00:27:58
for the first war, for after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

00:28:02
And then you can see two wars in Chechnya, it was really a civil war

00:28:07
caused by the policy of Russia, but, uh, uh, as well because of the failure

00:28:11
of, political failure of Russia, political failure of government.

00:28:15
Actually, that's why I don't know, I don't know, uh, if it is, uh, if I'm discovering

00:28:20
something for your audience, but one of the reason of popularity of Putin, because

00:28:25
he came and he was the, the only person who could stop this conflict in Chechnya.

00:28:31
And it was his first political success and it was really, uh, it brought

00:28:40
him really a lot of electoral voices and a lot of popularity in Russia.

00:28:49
Because, uh, before we were thinking that this war is unstoppable,

00:28:54
it's impossible to stop.

00:28:56
As they are telling now about the war in Ukraine, you know, I was in Chechnya, just

00:29:05
a small visit of three days, I've seen Grozny, I remember because I was learning

00:29:13
at the school and then you University.

00:29:16
I remember after the bombing.

00:29:18
It was like, the city was, uh, complete, almost, completely raised grossly.

00:29:22
But now if you go there, you cannot find any, uh, traces of, of the war.

00:29:27
It's absolutely new, but.

00:29:29
You come there, you won't say how it looked like.

00:29:31
Jovanni: You mentioned about Chechnya and people thinking that Chechnya was going to

00:29:34
be an indefinite war that would never end.

00:29:36
Do you, is that the sentiment in Russia right now with the Ukrainian

00:29:39
war that it would never end?

00:29:41
Olesya Orlenko: Well, not in Russia.

00:29:42
I think that in Russia, the perception of, of what happens of special operations,

00:29:47
the perception of what happens in Donetsk, it's absolutely different.

00:29:51
It's quite different.

00:29:52
Uh, in Donetsk and in Moscow.

00:29:54
When you are in Moscow, you really, uh, you will see the, the, the, the

00:30:00
city of, uh, peaceful city, uh, people living, uh, uh, there are a lot of

00:30:07
distractions, uh, going to restaurants, uh, celebrating, uh, et cetera, et cetera.

00:30:11
Uh, of course, in Donetsk, it's different.

00:30:15
And, uh, uh, that's why when people from Donetsk come in Moscow, they say

00:30:19
that we have an impression that we are, well, that it's really, that it's

00:30:26
not real what happens there back home.

00:30:28
Yeah, but, you know, of course, there is a sort of depression in many regions of

00:30:36
Donetsk, uh, for, uh, To be, to look at the future, people need this stability and

00:30:45
when, for example, Donetsk, the bombing of Donetsk never stopped since 2014.

00:30:52
Never stopped.

00:30:53
Every day.

00:30:54
I mean, of course, the damage was different, but every day

00:30:58
they were bombing Donetsk.

00:31:00
Not a single day stopped.

00:31:03
Uh, and that's why, for example, in the city, they, uh, are no,

00:31:09
they new buildings, don't they, they don't construction new

00:31:13
buildings, new apartments, or because they could be destroyed.

00:31:17
Nobody want to start the construction there.

00:31:20
But for example, in Mariupol, I was in Mariupol, uh, when it was just.

00:31:26
when the, the Ukrainians went away, even I was even there when, still

00:31:30
as of style, uh, uh, were fighting.

00:31:34
It was just at the moment where it was, coming to the end.

00:31:37
But I've seen the city, I've seen this road.

00:31:40
I, I've seen everything that could be in the cities, in this state,

00:31:43
and when I came my last time and I came there, it has changed.

00:31:47
Even if there are a lot of buildings destroyed and you could still

00:31:53
see the traces of destruction, but still see the changes.

00:32:00
And I can tell you that, It influenced the population.

00:32:03
I don't know, I mean, I'm not saying that people forgot everything

00:32:07
and now they are happy there.

00:32:08
Of course, this period, it was very, it was a real catastrophe.

00:32:12
When people see the changes for better, uh, it's, it's really influence.

00:32:20
But in Donetsk, for example, they don't see these changes.

00:32:23
I mean, they see a lot of changes, political changes, I mean.

00:32:26
And, of course, the situation, uh, changed in the matter of

00:32:30
that the Now they can earn money.

00:32:32
They can work and get their salary.

00:32:34
They can get the, uh, payment for retreatment for the, the pension or,

00:32:40
the infrastructure started to work, so it's the reality, but still for them,

00:32:46
of course, the changement will be when the violence and the combats will stop.

00:32:52
And that is what they're waiting for.

00:32:56
And I can tell you that a lot of them are really tired of this situation because

00:33:01
10 years, imagine, 10 years and this.

00:33:03
Jovanni: Situation.

00:33:05
Hopefully, hopefully end soon.

00:33:07
Recently, here in the United States, um, like I mentioned earlier, the, the years

00:33:13
prior to 2022, uh, didn't exist, right?

00:33:18
Everything happened in a vacuum.

00:33:20
Since 2022, Washington has poured billions, hundreds of billions

00:33:25
of dollars into this war.

00:33:27
The European Union, Germany.

00:33:29
Et cetera, right, to keep it going.

00:33:31
Recently there was a bill, there's a bill going on right now.

00:33:34
That the Democrats here wants to push political division here in the

00:33:38
United States with the Republicans wanting to defund the war in Ukraine.

00:33:43
And they'd rather fund more the war in Israel, they'd rather fund.

00:33:48
Conflict in with China and Taiwan, they'd rather fund those, but they want

00:33:52
to defund the war in Ukraine, whereas the Democrat wants to continue funding it.

00:33:56
So there's this fight in Congress right now but it's still, the media

00:33:59
is still presenting this, this conflict as a Ukrainian Russian war.

00:34:04
The West has nothing to do with it.

00:34:06
They give life to it because of funding and the billions of weapons.

00:34:10
You weapons that goes into this war.

00:34:12
Do Russians see it the same way?

00:34:14
Does see it as a, just a Ukrainian Russian war?

00:34:16
Olesya Orlenko: Oh, no, of course not.

00:34:17
Of course not.

00:34:18
In Russia, this conflict is viewed as a war of western countries.

00:34:23
And I can tell you even in Russia, there is a.

00:34:27
Tendency to see the Ukraine as a victim, I mean, the Ukrainians, not the Ukraine

00:34:34
as the, the government, because, but the Ukrainian people viewed in Russia

00:34:39
as a victim of of the policy, Western policy, United States, of course.

00:34:45
And of course this, this, uh, view is, represented the idea to simplify things.

00:34:52
Of course, uh, you cannot, design one as a bad person, bad actor,

00:34:56
and another as a good doctor.

00:34:58
Of course, all those conflicts, and I mean, not only Russian, and Ukrainian,

00:35:02
but, I mean a lot of war that exist now in the modern war is because the

00:35:09
diplomatic and political, uh, solution of problem could not be found and

00:35:13
it, it cannot be found because of the incompetence of political, establishment.

00:35:19
I think that of course western countries are, it's not far for, from, from, call

00:35:25
them direct, actors of the conflict, because it's not only the matter of,

00:35:30
of money, financial support of this military, uh, escalation and, uh,

00:35:36
combats, but the arms that, uh, they deliver to, uh, Ukraine, the arms

00:35:43
that can attack Russia with these arms, so it's, it's, it's a dead, but

00:35:47
Russia, of course, Russia, uh, may as well prevent as well, this red line.

00:35:52
This is extended from the Russian part as well.

00:35:57
But, I think we are very close to the direct implementation

00:36:02
in the United States.

00:36:03
This conflict of Western countries in any way now, even I see some of voices

00:36:09
from one of our European countries saying that Ukraine will last the war,

00:36:14
uh, Putin can win, et cetera, et cetera.

00:36:17
But, All this, they are saying this not to stop with the conflict,

00:36:22
but to prepare for a bigger one.

00:36:24
And we can see, uh, in Germany, in France, the rhetoric is political.

00:36:31
Now that I'm starting to hear it, that you really should prepare

00:36:35
to the attacks from Russia.

00:36:37
But, and, uh, we should restore the, for example, in France, it's very Big

00:36:42
problem the police and, uh, the army, the status of military, men in the

00:36:48
army is not very high in French society.

00:36:52
And now Macron says that we need to restore entrainment for teenagers, we

00:36:57
need to restore the prestige of our army.

00:37:01
So they are started to talk about that.

00:37:04
And at the same time, they are saying that, Russia is is going to invade Europe.

00:37:10
As a historian, I can recognize absolutely, it's not the clichés, even

00:37:14
the the phrases, the whole phrases, they were used even in 16th century when Russia

00:37:20
firstly appeared in European field, in European view, and all those Cliche,

00:37:26
they coming from, from the at time.

00:37:29
So why, why I'm saying this.

00:37:31
I, I want to tell that for really, for, for to stop, uh, the, these conflicts,

00:37:37
you really, you really should have an intention to stop with the escalation.

00:37:41
But for that, all actors and, Europeans and the USA government, they should,

00:37:50
they should absolutely change the, vector, you know, of the policy.

00:37:53
Like, when I was, I was explaining, I was talking about my French friend, and

00:38:01
he asked me, how can you, what you're proposing now, what now, February of 2024.

00:38:10
For to stop, uh, for to resolve the problem.

00:38:14
And I was saying that it was really very hard.

00:38:17
It was hard two years ago, but two years ago it was still possible.

00:38:20
But now, I mean, it's harder than two years ago.

00:38:23
But still, I think still possible.

00:38:26
But for that, you really should, accept part of responsibility for what happens.

00:38:32
So, USA and France, for example, should stop denying that they are in conflict.

00:38:38
Firstly, they should accept and recognize that they are contributing a lot for the

00:38:46
stabilization of the situation in Europe.

00:38:48
In post Soviet Union and Ukraine, et cetera, the same for U.

00:38:52
S.

00:38:52
A., of course.

00:38:53
So they should really stop and really go, from there and really to the data

00:38:59
should go from this area, completely.

00:39:02
And There are other actors to introduce the independent, to introduce and to

00:39:08
control the situation, like for example Cuba or Venezuela, but do France or United

00:39:16
States, will they ever accept That Cuba will contribute to resolve this conflict?

00:39:22
No, of course not, because for that the United States should really

00:39:26
change their position towards Cuba.

00:39:28
But if the United States, for example, changed their position

00:39:32
towards Cuba, perhaps it will move.

00:39:35
And the problem is that it's not only the conflict in Ukraine that matters, but,

00:39:41
now this conflict in Israel and Gaza.

00:39:43
It's a different conflict, but it comes in the same situation of

00:39:48
destabilization and Of denial.

00:39:50
It is the failure of international laws.

00:39:53
The international justice is the only way to resolve, no matter which country.

00:39:58
If the international justice doesn't work in one case, it

00:40:01
means that it doesn't work.

00:40:02
I mean, not a mistake, but the international justice have

00:40:05
no right to be selective.

00:40:06
Not once, because to be selective once, it means to be selective every time.

00:40:11
So, it should be the same for everybody, no matter of political ideology, it

00:40:16
should be the same for North Korea, for Cuba, for United States, for

00:40:19
Russia, for Ukraine, and for France.

00:40:21
I think it's the only way.

00:40:22
Jovanni: Absolutely.

00:40:23
Well, I think this is a good place for us to wrap it up.

00:40:26
Um, Olesya, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your time,

00:40:32
um, thoughts and experiences on this.

00:40:34
Um, any last comment before we part?

00:40:37
Olesya Orlenko: No, thanks, thanks a lot.

00:40:38
Thank you for your patience.

00:40:40
Jovanni: What do you, what do you recommend to an audience to learn

00:40:43
more about the situation in Dombas?

00:40:45
What resources do you recommend?

00:40:46
Olesya Orlenko: I think that it's very important, to get the information from

00:40:50
different resources, from different, point of view, when you have a conflict

00:40:54
and, uh, when you have, people in media who cover this, this conflict, there's

00:40:58
always a tendency to, uh, take part.

00:41:01
And of course, there are a lot of medias and or bloggers

00:41:04
or uh, uh, journalists who.

00:41:07
are taking part, uh, Russian part, Donetsk part, and I can tell you

00:41:12
that I'm taking part as well.

00:41:14
I am always from on the side of civilians, civilian population, and I was there, I

00:41:19
was standing there, and I'm always looking from the point of view of a simple person,

00:41:24
not a military one, it's always a victim, but you really, what I can Really, the

00:41:33
advice to your audience is not to be afraid of media qualified as pro Russian

00:41:40
ones, so even if you think that this is Kremlin propaganda, take your time to read

00:41:48
what they are reading, take your time to analyze and read Compare the information

00:41:54
from other sources and, I mean, not with the aim to say, ah, I'm, I will find,

00:42:00
uh, something for to, uh, for to look the arguments against what you're saying.

00:42:06
No, try to, to understand why people writing this, Don't be

00:42:10
like, you know, like in France, for example, they forbided the Russian

00:42:15
channels, information channels.

00:42:17
Uh, and France, it's the, the country of the freedom of speech.

00:42:22
And you can see that they are abiding the presence of Russian channels.

00:42:26
I'm not trying to, uh, defend, for example, Russia today now, uh, but

00:42:31
I can tell you for ex, for example, in the, in the French example, that

00:42:35
one, it was the Yellow jackets.

00:42:36
Yellow jackets, yeah.

00:42:38
These movements, the protest movements in France, uh.

00:42:42
The Russia Today was the only media who didn't call those people terrorists,

00:42:50
bandits, lazy, or walkists, that's why they were followed by French people, I

00:42:57
think you really should not be afraid of, of cliche and, to make your own

00:43:01
opinion , to listen to the information and not influenced by the qualification

00:43:07
they, given to the, to the source of this.

00:43:09
Just try to think yourself, your own.

00:43:12
Jovanni: Absolutely.

00:43:13
Absolutely.

00:43:14
Um, with that, uh, again, thank you again for joining us and, um, let's

00:43:21
hope together that this conflict comes to an end soon, right?

00:43:25
Take care.

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