Jovanni sits down with independent journalist Olesya Orlenko, a Russian historian, who provides on-the-ground perspectives from Donetsk in eastern Ukraine. They discuss the roots of the conflict tracing back to the 2014 coup in Ukraine, the role of Western media in shaping narratives, and the views from both Russian and Ukrainian sides.
Olesya Orlenko is a Russian historian, researcher, and reporter. She studied at the Institute of Russian and Archive in Russia, History Archive Russia, and at the National Charter School in France. Her interest includes World War II, Nazi genocide and extermination policy, history of the far right movement, and theories in France.
Since 2014, Melissa has been closely following events in the Donbass province and has traveled to the war zone several times to gather facts of crimes committed by the Ukrainian army [00:03:00] against the inhabitants of the UNESCO and Lugansk regions. She became a journalist in 2016 and has been reporting on such facts since.
Olesya is an author, documentarian, and founder of the Russian Society of Friends of L’Humanité, a French left wing newspaper.
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00:00:12
Don: This is Fortress On A Hill, with Henri, Kaygan, Jo
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vonni, Shiloh, and Monisha
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Jovanni: Welcome everyone to Fortress On A Hill, a podcast about US foreign
00:00:20
policy, anti imperialism, skepticism, and the American way of war..
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I'm Jovanni.
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Thank you for being with us today.
00:00:27
Most Americans will remember the war happening in Eastern Europe starting
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on February 24, 2022, when Russian President Vladimir Putin announced
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the special military operations and the intervention in Ukraine.
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Back then, there was an uproar in Western society and Western
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media went into hysteria.
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Huge condemnations from NATO countries and their close allies.
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It was described as a grievance of crimes, the worst.
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This was naked Russian aggression not seen in Europe since the Second World War.
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Forgetting that, two decades earlier, Nader set the former Yugoslavia on fire,
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causing the dismemberment of the country, and that they themselves have been waging
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war and bombing multiple Muslim majority countries for the last two decades.
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There was a new Hitler in Europe, and his name was Vladimir
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Putin, was the Western outcry.
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All of a sudden, everything in Russia, everything Russian
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was cancelled in the West.
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Russophobia was at its highest.
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Now, if you remember the war starting two years ago, that's because the U.
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S.
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and Western media, let's call it the NATO media, has been sure to keep you
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thinking this war started two years ago out of a vacuum with no context.
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The way the media constructed the narrative is that Ukraine was minding its
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own business and peace when Putin all of a sudden decided to invade just for funsies.
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Most Americans would be unaware.
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The Kiev had already been at war for the last nine years against its Russian
00:01:52
speaking population in the eastern region called the Donbass and against other
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Ukro Russian inhabitants in the area.
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The catalyst for this war was the CIA NATO 2014 engineered coup in Kiev
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which used the Euromaidan protests as a cover to facilitate the seizure of
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power by ultra right wing and neo Nazi elements and militias such as the Right
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Sector and other bandit right factions.
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Here to tell us more, I'm honored to introduce our guest.
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All the way from Moscow is Olesya Orlenko.
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Olesya is a Russian historian, researcher, and reporter.
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She studied at the Institute of Russian and Archive in Russia,
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History Archive Russia, and at the National Charter School in France.
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Her interest includes World War II, Nazi genocide and extermination
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policy, history of the far right movement, and theories in France.
00:02:49
Since 2014, Melissa has been closely following events in the Donbass
00:02:53
province and has traveled to the war zone several times to gather facts
00:02:57
of crimes committed by the Ukrainian army against the inhabitants of
00:03:01
the UNESCO and Lugansk regions.
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She became a journalist in 2016 and has been reporting on such facts since.
00:03:09
Olesya is an author, documentarian, and founder of the Russian
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Society of Friends of L'Humanité, a French left wing newspaper.
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Welcome to the show, Olesya.
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Olesya Orlenko: Hello, thank you.
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Thank you for inviting me.
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Jovanni: Olesya please tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from,
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and what brought you to your interests.
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Olesya Orlenko: Firstly, as you, as you have already mentioned, I was
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working as historian and, I think I'm telling this story all the time
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when I'm speaking about the Donbas.
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The events that happen now, for me, they are directly related with my interest
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and my occupation as a historian.
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I was working in different historical research projects, and one of them, which
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was very interesting, lasted many years.
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I was collecting the memories.
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I was recording the eyewitnesses of Nazi genocide, uh, in, uh, Soviet Russia,
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Soviet Belorussia, Soviet Latvia, people who are still living there.
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Uh, it was, uh, the special, uh, area of Nazi extermination policy where,
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uh, many villages were entirely destroyed and the population, killed
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or, sent to the concentration camps.
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And as it was, uh, twenty nine, twenty ten, twenty eleven, two thousand nine,
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two thousand ten, two thousand eleven years, so it was Long time ago, we
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could still find, uh, those who were children at the time, of World War ii.
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People who, uh, had 10 years, nine years, um, at this time.
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And, uh, we made, uh, quite interesting work with a lot of recordings.
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Many, uh.
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Thousands of, uh, interviews, of course, I wasn't alone.
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I was with my colleagues and, uh, uh, we're, uh, spending all summer
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actually in, in those area, uh, by traveling village to village.
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So very interesting work, very rich and, uh, very important, I think.
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When in 2014, uh, all this, those, those Maidan story and,
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uh, the war in Donbass began?
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I recognized when I was following the news and when I was speaking with the
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people who lives there, people I know who lives in Donetsk, what they were
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talking, how they were describing what happens, I really recognized, I've
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had a really deja vu, uh, feeling.
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Uh, I heard this before from different persons and about different time.
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But for me, it was so obviously that history repeating.
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And I started to do the same thing that I done some years ago.
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Uh, I started to Record the information about what happens.
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So, making a list of facts.
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And me and some colleagues of mine, uh, we start, we started doing this work.
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Well, it was like, just for ourselves, it wasn't the institution or something.
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So, we just made, started to make this, and then we We created the Facebook
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page, but of course it's not an official organization, just a Facebook page for
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fix and to make reposts of some news.
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It will disappear.
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They're passing away, they're passing away all the time.
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Actually, in 2014, we were hoping that it'll stop that, we haven't had
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an idea that it will last for years, all this war and this confrontation.
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We decided to proceed with our, with our work.
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We started to find other people who could help us.
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We started to find other people in Donetsk.
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As I told you, I, uh, I've been in Donetsk in Soviet time as a child.
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And I know people there, from there.
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I know people who are the age of my parents, and, they
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had their children as well.
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Some of them evacuated just at the beginning of the war
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because it was very violent.
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But some of them stayed there, so I could really, uh, get the
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information directly from the place.
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Uh, and as everything evaluated in the bad sense of this word, I'm still
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there, I'm still doing this kind of job, I'm still doing this kind of work,
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but of course we now have our team.
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Because since 2014 some of my colleagues went away because it's
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quite a pacifical occupation.
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And actually these, those events bring me to the journalism.
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Because I, I wanted to find the journalists from the, uh, other countries
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who share my views, my opinions.
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And I found them, actually.
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Uh, 2014, uh, 16, I found them.
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And I was optimist at the time.
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I was optimist.
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I thought that, uh, really sort of mobilization.
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Uh, I mean, social, uh, activist mobilization would really, uh, contribute
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to change, uh, things to better.
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But, unfortunately, it wasn't and now, after the beginning of special
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operation, I'm going myself to, to the place and even, even, uh, the special
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operation, I, I spent, I, I was in Donetsk when special operation began.
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I was with the French journalist there.
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Of course, I didn't know that, uh, everything, uh, going to happen,
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but, uh, I've seen how it was.
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I came there in Donetsk to follow the mobilization because if you remember
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in the beginning of February, there was a big mobilization and at the same
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evacuation of civilians, because, all this tension in the border on the front line.
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It was violated, the front line and the agreement of stop fire.
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I don't know how to say it, but it was violated many times.
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So, uh, I think it was in the air that, uh, something will, will happen.
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And because of that the ceasefire.
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Uh, and it was violated, and it was in the air that something happened.
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But of course we didn't expect to be at the middle of all those events.
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Uh, and since then I came, uh, several times.
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Uh, in Donetsk, but, uh, what I insist in my work is, uh,
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always to record the civilians.
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I'm not covering the, um, war, uh, events and I'm not covering the military issues.
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Uh, what I'm doing is I'm always coming to people, uh, who are always
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victims, actually all the time and from both sides, victims are civilians.
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And I'm talking with them, uh, and that's what I'm doing.
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I'm standing always at the same position as I was in 2014.
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So, in, from, from this point of view My views didn't change, so I'm always
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thinking what I thought 10 years and it's horrible, really sounds horrible.
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And that's what I continue to do, even when everything will stop,
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because in this, because the crimes against civilians, it's always.
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Very vulnerable topic, uh, and one of the most important for society,
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all the time, no matter how much time passed from the events.
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And the proof is that even now, the, uh, uh, the events of Second World War,
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uh, are still harmful for some people.
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For historical memory, for social memory, and, uh, you can say the same
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thing from no matter which country.
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Jovanni: So you said you chronicle and the, um, what the civilians,
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uh, has been, uh, uh, experiencing.
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And, uh, you write about that and you, uh, discuss and you talked about the
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civilians and you, um, got there in 2014.
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Uh, and you've been to Dunes and Luhan area since the, uh, specialty operation.
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Can you, can you describe what the civilians were telling you back then
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and what they're telling you now?
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If anything has changed, if it's the same, if it's gotten better?
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Olesya Orlenko: Well, uh, it's, it's actually, yes, uh, they, they have changed
00:11:55
their views, of course, but I mean, uh, I'll explain to you why I'm saying this.
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Um.
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Uh, I think that everybody now, uh, in media and it's very present is this,
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uh, uh, this, uh, uh, rhetoric that, uh, East Ukraine, Eastern Ukraine is
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pro Russian, it's more, uh, uh, Russian speakers and, uh, uh, the, the area
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with, uh, with a special, uh, history connected very much with, uh, Russia
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since, uh, Uh, centuries and the, uh, uh, Western Ukrainian and contrary,
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it's like, you know, uh, uh, more, the language is, uh, more similar with
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Polish language and, uh, the territory were, in Poland during many years.
00:12:45
I can tell you that Donetsk, well, in my, uh, opinion, as I remember this
00:12:53
in Soviet time, and as I know it now, perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm telling
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you my, uh, view of this region.
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It's absolutely a double speaking region.
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Even between my friends.
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I, I can tell you that even they speak if they speak Russian in bilingual.
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Yeah, they are bilingual.
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Uh, and if they speak Russian, uh, uh, in their family, they are absolutely.
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capable to speak Ukrainian.
00:13:22
Uh, I can tell you more.
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I can tell you that, uh, some of my friends and my comrades, uh, uh,
00:13:32
who came in Donetsk or in region, uh, in the families came there,
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living there since 19th century.
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They were, uh, Learning at Ukrainian schools, but they speak perfectly
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Russian without any accent, you know, so a lot, a lot of people
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there, uh, are, uh, bilingual.
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And, uh, I'm not saying of course, it's even in the cities and, and I, I'm not
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saying, I'm not saying in villages because if you come in village, of course you
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will see, you will hear all this mix of Russian, Ukrainian, uh, and very, very
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different, uh, languages and uh hmm.
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Uh, special vocabulary, which you cannot find anywhere else.
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So it's very, very interesting from this point of view, from a sociological
00:14:29
and ethnological point of view.
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But This confrontation.
00:14:34
So I cannot say tell you that in two, 2014, and people, I'm, and I'm asking
00:14:39
them why they, for example, were in anti Maidan, uh, in 2014 in esque, uh,
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they won't tell you that we are not want, we don't want to be in Ukraine,
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or we don't want to speak Ukrainian.
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No.
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They are speaking Ukrainian.
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The problem is the, the, uh, the issue is always, uh, political choice, as
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people understand, because, you know, the political choice is when you say
00:15:07
this, you should understand that the politician who will sign the agreements
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or, who will talk with the, uh, leaders of other country and the The person who
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lives in Donetsk going to work at the, uh, I don't know, at the factory or,
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no matter, or who lives in a village.
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They have the different understanding of this political choice.
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How it was explained to these people because, that's always
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the matter of the state.
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To keep the country together, you really need to make all citizens to understand
00:15:40
that they are citizens of this country.
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And I think that 2014 is a big failure of the Ukrainian state.
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I mean, this failure didn't occur in 2014 because it's the consequence
00:15:55
of the previous evolution.
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In 2014, it was the sign that the Ukrainian state made a big mistake
00:16:04
before, and it's not capable to keep the country together.
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If you hear what people were saying in 2014, the problem is not
00:16:12
what they were thinking about the Kiev war, about the government.
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But when people saw that there is an army People from Donetsk or, I don't
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know, in Slavyansk, for example, that people from Slavyansk, when they saw
00:16:26
that the army, the citizens of the same country, they speak in the same
00:16:31
language, uh, when they come to shoot them, when the first blood started
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to appear and the civil war started.
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Was operated in Kyiv.
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' cause Kyiv made a choice to keep the country together.
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The government made the choice to start the Civil War.
00:16:49
So this choice, made a really split between.
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Between Ukraine and people from Donbas and, Logan areas, territories, uh, they,
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they, they started the split, started there from there, from the Civil War.
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And 2014 I really heard, voices.
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That we need to stop it, we need to stop fire, we need
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really to find another solution.
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In 2022, when I came there, the discourse has absolutely changed.
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In this case, the discourse of people, when you go to the magazine,
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to the street and they stop people.
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When I talked to them, they, they are saying that I don't want to be
00:17:30
And Many friends of mine say that Ukraine killed Ukrainian in me, so I
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don't want, I cannot be in this state, so their political choice, uh, were
00:17:40
determined by the policy of Kiev.
00:17:42
That's what they say, that's why, that's why when it was the
00:17:45
referendum, our colleagues followed really very much this referendum.
00:17:50
I think this referendum Uh, about the self determination and about to enter
00:17:55
in Russian, uh, in Russia, to enter in Russia in September, uh, of 2022.
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I think it was really fair, it maybe it sounds for those who listen to
00:18:06
us, uh, unacceptable, but it's really fair because I Met all the time.
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I haven't ever met in, in, in my displacement in, in Luhansk
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I haven't ever met, someone who can say that, no, I don't agree.
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I don't want to be in Russia.
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So all of them were dreaming about Russia because they had their reasons.
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People was thinking that it'll resolve.
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The problem and they, uh, help them, uh, in their situation.
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They were during eight years in a very, in, in a humanitarian catastrophic,
00:18:38
and of course, only, solution they seen, the russian choice.
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So.
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I think that instead of resolving the problem, the Ukrainian government
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choice to make, things worse.
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And, as well the big failure of the Ukraine.
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Many people I know in 2014 15, uh, they were trying to
00:19:00
leave the, area of combatants.
00:19:02
And they, uh, they, they wanted to evacuate it somewhere.
00:19:06
And, uh, many of them choose Ukraine.
00:19:10
They moved to Ukraine, I mean to the central or east Ukraine to
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avoid the danger and they came back because they were accepted.
00:19:20
Where with the, the, they, they didn't fail themselves as in their country.
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They felt better In Crimea or, or in Rosol, uh, region or in Russia?
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Many of them left the central and eastern Ukraine and moved back, in the East.
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, of course they are they are people who, uh, evacuated and who made
00:19:43
the choice to stay in Ukraine.
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I keep in contact with some of them.
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And I'm keeping in contact with my Ukrainian friends and,
00:19:51
comrades who are still in Ukraine.
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But their situation is , very complicated.
00:19:56
Some of them, uh, stayed in Ukraine because they couldn't leave.
00:20:01
Now they are hiding from the mobilization.
00:20:05
Anyway, the situation, is very hard, as they describe it.
00:20:09
And some of my friends are now in Ukrainians, Ukrainian prisons,
00:20:16
and with some of them we really I can hardly communicate because
00:20:23
two years now, they are in prison.
00:20:25
Jovanni: So know that, um, in 2014, after the coup, um, the, the The anti
00:20:33
Russian sentiments, right, really intensified in Western Ukraine.
00:20:37
Um, you started seeing, um, attacks against the Russian identity in Ukraine.
00:20:43
You started seeing, people, politicians, political parties being, um, cancelled
00:20:50
or prohibited because they were thought to be too close to Russia.
00:20:54
Uh, the Russian Orthodox Church was shut down.
00:20:56
, there were ban on books on Russian language.
00:21:00
You saw trade unionists in Odessa, for example, they barricaded
00:21:03
themselves in their office building and a mob, an anti Russian mob,
00:21:08
pretty much, um, set the building on fire and killing all 80 of them.
00:21:12
Um, Crimea rapidly conducted a referendum with the majority voting to
00:21:17
secede from Ukraine and join Russia.
00:21:19
Russia conceded and annexed the peninsula.
00:21:25
The people of Donbass did the same.
00:21:28
However, Russia did not annex them.
00:21:31
What do you think, what do you think that, uh, that happened?
00:21:33
Olesya Orlenko: Those anti-Russian anti-Russian anti-Russian, uh,
00:21:36
sentiments in, uh, Western Ukraine.
00:21:40
You know, I faced them, uh, even, uh, when I was a child.
00:21:44
It's not something that appeared 10 years ago.
00:21:48
Uh, I, uh, was born in, uh, 1981 and my family, uh, was half Ukrainian.
00:21:58
And you can see my name and my, uh, family name are Ukrainians and my grandfather.
00:22:05
Uh, was from, uh, the Western Ukraine and, uh, so I can tell you that,
00:22:11
uh, he was born in Poland because it was at the moment when he was
00:22:16
born it was, uh, Polish territory.
00:22:19
And I can tell you that in this part of my family, the nationalism was very strong.
00:22:24
And in Soviet time, especially in Moscow, you know, and he was military, and it
00:22:32
wasn't exposed too much, you know, it wasn't the topic of family conversation.
00:22:39
But I really, I do remember, uh, the anti Semitic nationalist, speech phrases I
00:22:48
didn't make any attention to this, but I remember that it was really the reason,
00:22:54
um, the reason of the confrontation with my mother and father sometimes.
00:23:01
Um, although they were, uh, uh, young as well.
00:23:05
What I'm saying the, people like the, the extremists, the nationalists, the
00:23:10
radicals, they are existing in, uh, all country and, uh, uh, all the time.
00:23:17
How influenced they become in the country.
00:23:22
So it's like criminals, they can say that in a way.
00:23:25
Everywhere where there is a human society, there are deviations and there will be
00:23:32
criminals or, I don't know, fake people.
00:23:34
But if you, the question is if you allow them to make decisions, if you
00:23:39
allow them to influence the others.
00:23:41
Uh, I'm not thinking that West Ukraine is completely anti Russian, they are only a
00:23:49
racist who lives there and now it's not.
00:23:53
Uh, I was in Lviv, I was, uh, in Western Ukraine and I've seen.
00:24:00
Of course, I've seen both.
00:24:01
I've seen, uh, the, really, the racist, but at the same time, I've seen very
00:24:09
intelligent, smart people, uh, and I don't know how they're living now, because,
00:24:14
uh, they are afraid to contact someone, uh, in Russia, it was, uh, Since the
00:24:20
beginning of the, of the war, uh, since, uh, 2014, they stopped contact with me.
00:24:25
The problem is the minority of this radical minority.
00:24:29
They are now access there to education, they can influence the society, they
00:24:36
have all freedom to express their ideas,
00:24:40
the opportunities to express the opposite opinion are very, very, very wide.
00:24:47
It's not natural conflict, there were a lot of possibility, opportunities to
00:24:51
avoid this conflict, to resolve it then.
00:24:55
And even when the special operation began, there was still time, while we
00:25:00
could, I mean, people from the society.
00:25:03
The international community could really introduce an influence to stop
00:25:08
the violence, but we are observing, I'm observing since 2014, even earlier,
00:25:14
but let's take 2014, when I'm The one opportunity after another is lost
00:25:23
when one red line crossed, another one extended and then crossed again.
00:25:32
So now I can, now the reality, I remember that two years ago, I was
00:25:37
reading the articles and the political say, it was saying from France, from
00:25:41
US, from, was saying that no, this is a red line, uh, we couldn't cross it.
00:25:45
But now, look, two years, have passed and we've seen that all red lines, of
00:25:50
two years ago, now they are passed away.
00:25:53
What else?
00:25:55
What we're doing?
00:25:55
What we're doing again?
00:25:59
So, is there any real red line which we cannot cross?
00:26:08
If we're talking about Crimea, it was very, uh, interesting particular region,
00:26:14
but it was very from strategical point of view, very, very important for Russia.
00:26:20
I think that this conflict, uh, when I'm talking about the Ukraine, but of
00:26:25
course, Uh, the, the relations in the post Soviet space, depended as well from
00:26:32
Russia and for Russia it is important.
00:26:35
The failure as well since the collapse of the Soviet Union.
00:26:40
One failure for after another for, for Russia.
00:26:43
Everything started from the war.
00:26:46
It's just, uh, if you see Sochi, uh, and it was, it's just,
00:26:50
uh, very, very new to Sochi.
00:26:51
You, you, you take two hours maximum for to go there, uh, by train.
00:26:56
Uh, and I, I, I visited, uh, Apia as a journalist as well.
00:27:01
Uh, I've seen.
00:27:03
It's really a disaster.
00:27:04
It's a disaster.
00:27:05
It's an absolutely abandoned, very, very rich region.
00:27:11
But I've seen those, the entire city, the ghost city, you know, the entire city.
00:27:20
You could see the buildings.
00:27:22
You can also see the traces of the war who ended.
00:27:26
30 years ago, you still can see the, uh, the traces of fires,
00:27:32
of destroyed buildings, and the city, the whole city is abandoned.
00:27:38
It's, uh, hallucinating, it's amazing, I mean, in a bad sense of this word.
00:27:43
Uh, even there, about, I've seen that about 9 or 10 persons still
00:27:50
live there, of course, the old ones.
00:27:53
I really, uh Of course it, uh, it wasn't the first war, but I mean,
00:27:58
for the first war, for after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
00:28:02
And then you can see two wars in Chechnya, it was really a civil war
00:28:07
caused by the policy of Russia, but, uh, uh, as well because of the failure
00:28:11
of, political failure of Russia, political failure of government.
00:28:15
Actually, that's why I don't know, I don't know, uh, if it is, uh, if I'm discovering
00:28:20
something for your audience, but one of the reason of popularity of Putin, because
00:28:25
he came and he was the, the only person who could stop this conflict in Chechnya.
00:28:31
And it was his first political success and it was really, uh, it brought
00:28:40
him really a lot of electoral voices and a lot of popularity in Russia.
00:28:49
Because, uh, before we were thinking that this war is unstoppable,
00:28:54
it's impossible to stop.
00:28:56
As they are telling now about the war in Ukraine, you know, I was in Chechnya, just
00:29:05
a small visit of three days, I've seen Grozny, I remember because I was learning
00:29:13
at the school and then you University.
00:29:16
I remember after the bombing.
00:29:18
It was like, the city was, uh, complete, almost, completely raised grossly.
00:29:22
But now if you go there, you cannot find any, uh, traces of, of the war.
00:29:27
It's absolutely new, but.
00:29:29
You come there, you won't say how it looked like.
00:29:31
Jovanni: You mentioned about Chechnya and people thinking that Chechnya was going to
00:29:34
be an indefinite war that would never end.
00:29:36
Do you, is that the sentiment in Russia right now with the Ukrainian
00:29:39
war that it would never end?
00:29:41
Olesya Orlenko: Well, not in Russia.
00:29:42
I think that in Russia, the perception of, of what happens of special operations,
00:29:47
the perception of what happens in Donetsk, it's absolutely different.
00:29:51
It's quite different.
00:29:52
Uh, in Donetsk and in Moscow.
00:29:54
When you are in Moscow, you really, uh, you will see the, the, the, the
00:30:00
city of, uh, peaceful city, uh, people living, uh, uh, there are a lot of
00:30:07
distractions, uh, going to restaurants, uh, celebrating, uh, et cetera, et cetera.
00:30:11
Uh, of course, in Donetsk, it's different.
00:30:15
And, uh, uh, that's why when people from Donetsk come in Moscow, they say
00:30:19
that we have an impression that we are, well, that it's really, that it's
00:30:26
not real what happens there back home.
00:30:28
Yeah, but, you know, of course, there is a sort of depression in many regions of
00:30:36
Donetsk, uh, for, uh, To be, to look at the future, people need this stability and
00:30:45
when, for example, Donetsk, the bombing of Donetsk never stopped since 2014.
00:30:52
Never stopped.
00:30:53
Every day.
00:30:54
I mean, of course, the damage was different, but every day
00:30:58
they were bombing Donetsk.
00:31:00
Not a single day stopped.
00:31:03
Uh, and that's why, for example, in the city, they, uh, are no,
00:31:09
they new buildings, don't they, they don't construction new
00:31:13
buildings, new apartments, or because they could be destroyed.
00:31:17
Nobody want to start the construction there.
00:31:20
But for example, in Mariupol, I was in Mariupol, uh, when it was just.
00:31:26
when the, the Ukrainians went away, even I was even there when, still
00:31:30
as of style, uh, uh, were fighting.
00:31:34
It was just at the moment where it was, coming to the end.
00:31:37
But I've seen the city, I've seen this road.
00:31:40
I, I've seen everything that could be in the cities, in this state,
00:31:43
and when I came my last time and I came there, it has changed.
00:31:47
Even if there are a lot of buildings destroyed and you could still
00:31:53
see the traces of destruction, but still see the changes.
00:32:00
And I can tell you that, It influenced the population.
00:32:03
I don't know, I mean, I'm not saying that people forgot everything
00:32:07
and now they are happy there.
00:32:08
Of course, this period, it was very, it was a real catastrophe.
00:32:12
When people see the changes for better, uh, it's, it's really influence.
00:32:20
But in Donetsk, for example, they don't see these changes.
00:32:23
I mean, they see a lot of changes, political changes, I mean.
00:32:26
And, of course, the situation, uh, changed in the matter of
00:32:30
that the Now they can earn money.
00:32:32
They can work and get their salary.
00:32:34
They can get the, uh, payment for retreatment for the, the pension or,
00:32:40
the infrastructure started to work, so it's the reality, but still for them,
00:32:46
of course, the changement will be when the violence and the combats will stop.
00:32:52
And that is what they're waiting for.
00:32:56
And I can tell you that a lot of them are really tired of this situation because
00:33:01
10 years, imagine, 10 years and this.
00:33:03
Jovanni: Situation.
00:33:05
Hopefully, hopefully end soon.
00:33:07
Recently, here in the United States, um, like I mentioned earlier, the, the years
00:33:13
prior to 2022, uh, didn't exist, right?
00:33:18
Everything happened in a vacuum.
00:33:20
Since 2022, Washington has poured billions, hundreds of billions
00:33:25
of dollars into this war.
00:33:27
The European Union, Germany.
00:33:29
Et cetera, right, to keep it going.
00:33:31
Recently there was a bill, there's a bill going on right now.
00:33:34
That the Democrats here wants to push political division here in the
00:33:38
United States with the Republicans wanting to defund the war in Ukraine.
00:33:43
And they'd rather fund more the war in Israel, they'd rather fund.
00:33:48
Conflict in with China and Taiwan, they'd rather fund those, but they want
00:33:52
to defund the war in Ukraine, whereas the Democrat wants to continue funding it.
00:33:56
So there's this fight in Congress right now but it's still, the media
00:33:59
is still presenting this, this conflict as a Ukrainian Russian war.
00:34:04
The West has nothing to do with it.
00:34:06
They give life to it because of funding and the billions of weapons.
00:34:10
You weapons that goes into this war.
00:34:12
Do Russians see it the same way?
00:34:14
Does see it as a, just a Ukrainian Russian war?
00:34:16
Olesya Orlenko: Oh, no, of course not.
00:34:17
Of course not.
00:34:18
In Russia, this conflict is viewed as a war of western countries.
00:34:23
And I can tell you even in Russia, there is a.
00:34:27
Tendency to see the Ukraine as a victim, I mean, the Ukrainians, not the Ukraine
00:34:34
as the, the government, because, but the Ukrainian people viewed in Russia
00:34:39
as a victim of of the policy, Western policy, United States, of course.
00:34:45
And of course this, this, uh, view is, represented the idea to simplify things.
00:34:52
Of course, uh, you cannot, design one as a bad person, bad actor,
00:34:56
and another as a good doctor.
00:34:58
Of course, all those conflicts, and I mean, not only Russian, and Ukrainian,
00:35:02
but, I mean a lot of war that exist now in the modern war is because the
00:35:09
diplomatic and political, uh, solution of problem could not be found and
00:35:13
it, it cannot be found because of the incompetence of political, establishment.
00:35:19
I think that of course western countries are, it's not far for, from, from, call
00:35:25
them direct, actors of the conflict, because it's not only the matter of,
00:35:30
of money, financial support of this military, uh, escalation and, uh,
00:35:36
combats, but the arms that, uh, they deliver to, uh, Ukraine, the arms
00:35:43
that can attack Russia with these arms, so it's, it's, it's a dead, but
00:35:47
Russia, of course, Russia, uh, may as well prevent as well, this red line.
00:35:52
This is extended from the Russian part as well.
00:35:57
But, I think we are very close to the direct implementation
00:36:02
in the United States.
00:36:03
This conflict of Western countries in any way now, even I see some of voices
00:36:09
from one of our European countries saying that Ukraine will last the war,
00:36:14
uh, Putin can win, et cetera, et cetera.
00:36:17
But, All this, they are saying this not to stop with the conflict,
00:36:22
but to prepare for a bigger one.
00:36:24
And we can see, uh, in Germany, in France, the rhetoric is political.
00:36:31
Now that I'm starting to hear it, that you really should prepare
00:36:35
to the attacks from Russia.
00:36:37
But, and, uh, we should restore the, for example, in France, it's very Big
00:36:42
problem the police and, uh, the army, the status of military, men in the
00:36:48
army is not very high in French society.
00:36:52
And now Macron says that we need to restore entrainment for teenagers, we
00:36:57
need to restore the prestige of our army.
00:37:01
So they are started to talk about that.
00:37:04
And at the same time, they are saying that, Russia is is going to invade Europe.
00:37:10
As a historian, I can recognize absolutely, it's not the clichés, even
00:37:14
the the phrases, the whole phrases, they were used even in 16th century when Russia
00:37:20
firstly appeared in European field, in European view, and all those Cliche,
00:37:26
they coming from, from the at time.
00:37:29
So why, why I'm saying this.
00:37:31
I, I want to tell that for really, for, for to stop, uh, the, these conflicts,
00:37:37
you really, you really should have an intention to stop with the escalation.
00:37:41
But for that, all actors and, Europeans and the USA government, they should,
00:37:50
they should absolutely change the, vector, you know, of the policy.
00:37:53
Like, when I was, I was explaining, I was talking about my French friend, and
00:38:01
he asked me, how can you, what you're proposing now, what now, February of 2024.
00:38:10
For to stop, uh, for to resolve the problem.
00:38:14
And I was saying that it was really very hard.
00:38:17
It was hard two years ago, but two years ago it was still possible.
00:38:20
But now, I mean, it's harder than two years ago.
00:38:23
But still, I think still possible.
00:38:26
But for that, you really should, accept part of responsibility for what happens.
00:38:32
So, USA and France, for example, should stop denying that they are in conflict.
00:38:38
Firstly, they should accept and recognize that they are contributing a lot for the
00:38:46
stabilization of the situation in Europe.
00:38:48
In post Soviet Union and Ukraine, et cetera, the same for U.
00:38:52
S.
00:38:52
A., of course.
00:38:53
So they should really stop and really go, from there and really to the data
00:38:59
should go from this area, completely.
00:39:02
And There are other actors to introduce the independent, to introduce and to
00:39:08
control the situation, like for example Cuba or Venezuela, but do France or United
00:39:16
States, will they ever accept That Cuba will contribute to resolve this conflict?
00:39:22
No, of course not, because for that the United States should really
00:39:26
change their position towards Cuba.
00:39:28
But if the United States, for example, changed their position
00:39:32
towards Cuba, perhaps it will move.
00:39:35
And the problem is that it's not only the conflict in Ukraine that matters, but,
00:39:41
now this conflict in Israel and Gaza.
00:39:43
It's a different conflict, but it comes in the same situation of
00:39:48
destabilization and Of denial.
00:39:50
It is the failure of international laws.
00:39:53
The international justice is the only way to resolve, no matter which country.
00:39:58
If the international justice doesn't work in one case, it
00:40:01
means that it doesn't work.
00:40:02
I mean, not a mistake, but the international justice have
00:40:05
no right to be selective.
00:40:06
Not once, because to be selective once, it means to be selective every time.
00:40:11
So, it should be the same for everybody, no matter of political ideology, it
00:40:16
should be the same for North Korea, for Cuba, for United States, for
00:40:19
Russia, for Ukraine, and for France.
00:40:21
I think it's the only way.
00:40:22
Jovanni: Absolutely.
00:40:23
Well, I think this is a good place for us to wrap it up.
00:40:26
Um, Olesya, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your time,
00:40:32
um, thoughts and experiences on this.
00:40:34
Um, any last comment before we part?
00:40:37
Olesya Orlenko: No, thanks, thanks a lot.
00:40:38
Thank you for your patience.
00:40:40
Jovanni: What do you, what do you recommend to an audience to learn
00:40:43
more about the situation in Dombas?
00:40:45
What resources do you recommend?
00:40:46
Olesya Orlenko: I think that it's very important, to get the information from
00:40:50
different resources, from different, point of view, when you have a conflict
00:40:54
and, uh, when you have, people in media who cover this, this conflict, there's
00:40:58
always a tendency to, uh, take part.
00:41:01
And of course, there are a lot of medias and or bloggers
00:41:04
or uh, uh, journalists who.
00:41:07
are taking part, uh, Russian part, Donetsk part, and I can tell you
00:41:12
that I'm taking part as well.
00:41:14
I am always from on the side of civilians, civilian population, and I was there, I
00:41:19
was standing there, and I'm always looking from the point of view of a simple person,
00:41:24
not a military one, it's always a victim, but you really, what I can Really, the
00:41:33
advice to your audience is not to be afraid of media qualified as pro Russian
00:41:40
ones, so even if you think that this is Kremlin propaganda, take your time to read
00:41:48
what they are reading, take your time to analyze and read Compare the information
00:41:54
from other sources and, I mean, not with the aim to say, ah, I'm, I will find,
00:42:00
uh, something for to, uh, for to look the arguments against what you're saying.
00:42:06
No, try to, to understand why people writing this, Don't be
00:42:10
like, you know, like in France, for example, they forbided the Russian
00:42:15
channels, information channels.
00:42:17
Uh, and France, it's the, the country of the freedom of speech.
00:42:22
And you can see that they are abiding the presence of Russian channels.
00:42:26
I'm not trying to, uh, defend, for example, Russia today now, uh, but
00:42:31
I can tell you for ex, for example, in the, in the French example, that
00:42:35
one, it was the Yellow jackets.
00:42:36
Yellow jackets, yeah.
00:42:38
These movements, the protest movements in France, uh.
00:42:42
The Russia Today was the only media who didn't call those people terrorists,
00:42:50
bandits, lazy, or walkists, that's why they were followed by French people, I
00:42:57
think you really should not be afraid of, of cliche and, to make your own
00:43:01
opinion , to listen to the information and not influenced by the qualification
00:43:07
they, given to the, to the source of this.
00:43:09
Just try to think yourself, your own.
00:43:12
Jovanni: Absolutely.
00:43:13
Absolutely.
00:43:14
Um, with that, uh, again, thank you again for joining us and, um, let's
00:43:21
hope together that this conflict comes to an end soon, right?
00:43:25
Take care.
00:43:26
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